Hydrogen as an Alternative Fuel to Rising Gas Prices in a Looming Future Energy Crisis

Gas prices are rising once again, with some predicting we  will be paying over $3.00 per gallon at the pumps again this summer.  As long as Congress continues to thwart efforts to reduce our nation's dependence on foreign oil and bows down to environmentalists who oppose drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR), Americans are left to search for alternatives to paying higher prices at the pumps and in home heating bills.

America's corporations are also searching for ways to expand domestically produced alternative energy.  One company working on the issue is Daimler Chrysler, through its research and production of hybrid vehicles and hydrogen as a viable energy option. 

Recently, CFIF Senior Vice President & Corporate Counsel Renee Giachino spoke with two representatives from Daimler Chrysler about its hydrogen vehicle project.  What follows are excerpts from the interview that aired on "Your Turn - Meeting Nonsense with Common Sense" on WEBY 1330 AM, Northwest Florida's Talk Radio.

GIACHINO:  During the height of our most recent fuel crisis, when we were paying close to if not $3 per gallon, a listener asked if I could please get someone on the air to discuss hydrogen cars.  I have the pleasure to welcome to Your Turn two gentlemen from Daimler Chrysler, Nick Cappa and Doahn Tran. 

Gentleman, welcome to the program.

CAPPA:  Thanks for having us.

GIACHINO:  Nick and then Doahn, can you each please take a moment and tell us what you do at Daimler Chrysler?  Nick, I know you serve as spokesman on advanced technology and Doahn you are a fuel cell engineer.  Can each of you please share with us more about your positions?

TRAN:  I am the fuel cells systems manager for Daimler Chrysler in Auburn Hills.  I am in charge of fuel cell related activities for the Chrysler group - from vehicles operating on the road to research in the lab.

CAPPA:  My name is Nick Cappa and I am manager for advanced technologies here at Daimler Chrysler for North America.  That means that I will cover anything that has to do with hybrids, fuel cells, advanced diesel technology and even some engineering topics on fuel economy.

GIACHINO:  Okay, then Nick, I'm going to ask you to first address at the level that I can understand it - not as an engineering expert, but I am trying to wrap my arms around this whole idea of alternative fuels.  We will talk more specifically about hydrogen cars, but first can you help me understand how many and what types of alternative fuel cars are available?  And then Doahn after he does that maybe you can tell us from an engineering standpoint what all of that means.

CAPPA:  Let's start with diesel.  Although diesel is pretty much a common fuel, bio-diesel is definitely an alternative fuel.  Right now we are working to develop bio-diesel and make our engines more compatible with higher sources of bio-diesel.  Our Jeep Liberty bio-diesel right now comes off the production line with B5 Diesel, which is 5% bio-diesel.

GIACHINO:  Nick, when you say bio-diesel, does that come from fossil fuels?

CAPPA:  No it does not; it actually comes from different forms of organic matters.  It can be through corn or soy bean, for example.  The bio-diesel that comes off the line with the Liberty is soy diesel.

GIACHINO:  So is that different from the diesel that I understand goes into large trucks and motor homes and things like that?

CAPPA:  When you say B5 you are actually talking about the percentage of bio that the fuel is.  So a B5 would be 5% bio and the rest of it would be normal petroleum based diesel.

CAPPA:  Another fuel that we work with is flex-fuel vehicles with ethanol and E85.  And those vehicles can run on E85, which again is the same kind of representation where you have 85% ethanol and the rest is gasoline, or the vehicle can run on a combination of gasoline and E85.  We have the largest fleet of any manufacturer with 1.5 million E85 flex vehicles on the road right now.  That definitely is one of the alternative vehicles that we look at right now, especially in fleet applications where it seems to be very popular.

Something else that we are very aggressively committed to is hydrogen fuel cells and that is where Doahn is an expert and he can talk a little about that.

GIACHINO:  Doahn, what is meant by the term hybrid?  Is a hybrid any combination of different sources of fuel?

TRAN:  Actually that is a very good question.  Hybrid means two power generation sources.  So a hybrid could mean an internal combustion engine or a battery or a fuel cell in a battery.  Because it has two sources of power, that is why it is called a hybrid.

CAPPA:  This is a great opportunity because I think that a lot of people think of a hybrid and think of it being a hybrid or not a hybrid.  There are so many different types of hybrids out there.  For instance, most people see a freight train and think of it as a diesel engine, but it is actually a type of hybrid system.  It powers a generator for electricity and then powers electric motors which powers the train itself.  So it is not necessarily running directly on diesel engines as it is running on electricity.  And so that is one type of hybrid.

We actually apply that type of hybrid system to our Orion bus series, which we have 825 of in New York City alone and more throughout the United States.

GIACHINO:  So these people who boast that they drive a hybrids right now, what types of hybrids are those that we are seeing more commonly out on the road.

TRAN:  The more common hybrid is known as the regular internal combustion type that you and I use everyday and a small battery.

GIACHINO:  So is that an electric hybrid or is that something totally different?

TRAN:  Actually it is not pure electric because the engine can drive the axel too.

GIACHINO:  So it is a gasoline-electric hybrid?

TRAN:  That is exactly correct.

GIACHINO:  Now we are going to talk about hydrogen, but am I right that even within the hydrogen family there are several different models of hydrogen vehicles?  I think when I was researching this I read about a hydrogen internal combustion engine and a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.  Doahn, can you tell me are both in development now and can we see either one out there already?

TRAN:  Both technologies are in development but Daimler Chrysler has over 100 of these vehicles around the world.  What I mean by that is that they are strictly hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.  But since hydrogen is a fuel, you can also combust it in a normal combustion engine like you run gasoline.  But that is not the focus of our efforts.  We are focused on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles because it is zero emission.  In the United States alone we have 30 of these vehicles spread throughout the northern and southern parts of California and actually there are a few here in the State of Michigan.

GIACHINO:  Is it true that hydrogen is the most abundant resource in the world?

TRAN:  That is absolutely correct.  It is the most abundant element in the universe.

GIACHINO:  So when they talk about hydrogen as an energy source, is it something that is a renewable energy source?

CAPPA:  Right now we are still in the phase of trying to figure out the best way to extract hydrogen and where to get it from.  It can be extracted from a renewable source - like water for instance.  But it is very expensive to do it like that and it takes a lot of energy to do it that way.  There are other ways that it is harnessed, for instance an industrial byproduct or a natural gas reformation.  That is one of the challenges right now is to figure out the best and least expensive way to refine hydrogen.

GIACHINO:  Someone else mentioned to me that once we are able to refine it better and have hydrogen engines out there, someone will have to put forth the huge capital expense to get over what may be the greatest hurdle - that is setting up a distribution network to supply the hydrogen that runs them.  Aren't we talking about having hydrogen stations?

CAPPA:  It is interesting.  I get asked this question a lot.  How am I going to get hydrogen in my car?  It is put in a lot of the same way that you would fill a barbeque tank so there really is not a whole lot out there that has to be done to make sure that the pump is in place.  The distribution is already in place and it would be putting the pumps in place at the stations.  Years and years ago when we first came out with automobiles there is a story that Carl Benz's wife had to go to a pharmacy and buy gasoline by the gallon from a store.  So of course, when people want the product, the infrastructure will come.  That's going to be up to the energy companies to make that happen.  Part of the reason that we are able to make this happen so quickly - remember we only started this about 10 years ago, is that the Department of Energy has put some money out there to put us together with energy companies as partners.  For instance, we are partnered up with BP Energy right now in putting infrastructure together with our customers who have fuel cell vehicles today in the United States.

GIACHINO:  Well then how feasible from an economic standpoint is it that we may in the near future - that is 5 to 10 years from now, that we could be driving hydrogen fuel cell vehicles?

TRAN:  Actually our target for a limited mass production is between 2012 and 2015.  We are actually working pretty aggressively with the energy partners to put in fueling stations in concentrated areas so that you can have a network of infrastructure where the consumers can be mobile in their network.  Will it be spread across the nation by 2012 or 2015?  That's unlikely.  But in the big cities where pollution is actually one of the big issues, you can have a concentrated network so customers can operate these cars freely.

GIACHINO:  Nick, you referenced the fact that some years ago some woman had to go and buy a jar of gasoline at the local grocery store and carry it home.  I could imagine that until these stations are set up and there is the infrastructure that we need to fuel hydrogen cars that people may have to carry a renewable hydrogen fuel tank of some sort in their trunk.  Like what you do with your barbeque grill.  Tell me about the safety concerns related to this - I mean when I think about carrying hydrogen in a car and the possibility of that car being in an accident, do I have reasons to be concerned when it comes to safety?

CAPPA:  Absolutely not.  There is so much that goes along with that.  I guess if I told you that 100 years ago you would be sitting in your SUV with a tank made of plastic or metal and carrying 40 gallons of flammable liquid you probably would have told me that I was crazy.  But here we are today and everybody does it.  Doahn can talk a little more about the technology that goes into these specialized tanks and the safety precautions that we take.

TRAN:  These tanks are actually very thoroughly tested - they are drop tested, bullet tested, salt tested, you name it.  Safety actually is not the issue.

GIACHINO:  That is very comforting and I am happy to hear that particularly because we are more likely to see more of these types of cars in the near future.  Am I right that there are some in Florida?

TRAN:  That's right.  Not from us, but that is right.

CAPPA:  We have actually taken a fuel cell vehicle and engulfed it in flames with a full hydrogen tank to test the effects that it would have.  A lot of people associate hydrogen with the Hindenburg and that is a grave mistake.  I guess recently they found that the reason for that fire was the liner of the balloon itself and not the hydrogen.  Hydrogen is combustible.  Once it is released in the air it quickly wants to bond with other elements and become water, especially here.

GIACHINO:  Is Daimler Chrysler working with the State of California to put out some of those vehicles?

TRAN:  Yes, we have the California fuel cell partnership in Sacramento.  We have 25 fuel cell vehicles in the Sacramento region and down in the Long Beach region of California.

GIACHINO:  Okay, so we know that they are out there.

I just saw an ad in our local papers that indicates that bio-diesel is here.  Doahn, this ad talks about a place where people can go to buy bio-diesel.  Can any car run on bio-diesel or does it have to be a diesel car already?

CAPPA:  On the bio-diesel side, you really need to make sure that the engine is calibrated for it before you use bio-diesel and run some tests with it.  We have done that with all of the vehicles that we make here in the United States that run with diesel to make sure that they can accept B5.  As far as finding the B5 and where you can get access to it, some stations have it and stock it, but it is not necessarily the easiest fuel to find at this time but we are hoping to change that.

GIACHINO:  It looks like it might be changing.  Another question, a little outside the realm of what you do but it will help me to understand hydrogen as an energy source for the future and obviously we are looking at it as an alternative to replace finite fossil fuels such as diesel, petroleum and natural gas.  Daimler Chrysler is in the business of designing and building cars and they do a wonderful job of that.  Do you know whether or not we could someday be heating our homes with hydrogen?

TRAN:  Actually yes there is no reason why you cannot.

GIACHINO:  So they are looking at hydrogen as a replacement or alternative fuel source beyond just the automobile?

TRAN:  Hydrogen is an energy carrier and it is designed to substitute in the place of natural gas and petroleum.

GIACHINO:  Okay.  I am going to go ahead and take a call.  Go ahead caller, it's your turn.

CALLER:  Thank you.  I don't know why all vehicles aren't flex fuel and why we are all not using E85 right now?

CAPPA:  That is going to be something that the market decides.  As I said, we as a company have the largest fleet of any manufacturer out there - we are most aggressively committed to E85 and ethanol right now.  We have four different vehicles that we offer and we found that market acceptance for that in fleets have been better than anywhere else.  If our customers decided that they wanted E85, then we would build E85 in all of our vehicles.

CALLER:  Okay.  It does have better emissions.

CAPPA:  Yes, we believe in it greatly.  That is why we are so committed to it.

CALLER:  Do you sell any flex fuel vehicles to other countries?

CAPPA:  I am going to have to get you marketing for that one.

CALLER:  Okay, I was just wondering.  Thank you very much.

GIACHINO:  Let me ask you a technical question.  Do hydrogen cars have the same range as other vehicles and can they go at the same speeds?  What is the acceleration rate on them?

TRAN:  That is an excellent question.  At the moment the range is not as good as conventional vehicles that we are familiar with and we are trying to change that through internal development and also a lot of development with the Department of Energy on more efficient and dense hydrogen storage technologies.  But on the performance level, actually hydrogen fuel cell vehicles perform very well because of the electric drive.  In some instances, it outperforms internal combustion engines on the low speed.  Now in a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle I can go above the speed limit easily.  I try not to break the law too often but it can go very fast.  It is not an issue of performance.  The issue is actually range right now.

CAPPA:  It is really neat.  I got to tell you when you are driving down the highway at high speeds and you know that nothing is coming out of your tailpipe except for water vapor - no emissions, and the power is there it is incredible.  It is a small little passenger car.  We have small cars, vans and buses that we can all operate on hydrogen fuel cells.

GIACHINO:  Okay, so it certainly is going to reduce emissions.  Almost take it down to zero.  Someone also said that a hydrogen car is stealth.  Is it true that the engine is noiseless?

CAPPA:  It is possible to make them absolutely quiet.  But sometimes you are going to want some sound.  Especially in an urban environment where there are people crossing streets and you are used to hearing the sound of engines or something else coming along.  So sometimes you want to include a sound in the vehicle - maybe a whine or a whirl of some sort.  But yes, they are very quiet because of that.

GIACHINO:  Yes, I have been known to grind the gears if my engine is too quiet and I go to start it a second time when it is already running.

Okay, you talked about - and I know very little about hydrogen engines but I am learning a lot right now, but you mentioned that they emit little more than water vapor.  Obviously what we have on the road right now are test vehicles, so there are very few out there right now.  If hydrogen cars are the future and all of a sudden all of this water vapor is going to be emitted from these cars, will be all be living in places like Seattle where the air is going to be moister over time because of these vapor emissions?

TRAN:  That's a logical question.  We are working on better water management techniques where we try to retain as much of the water as possible because the engine needs water to operate too.  So over time we will balance the system so well that very, very little water will come out of the tailpipe so it will not cause any potential environmental issues.

CAPPA:  But even at that rate, you are still looking at a very minimal amount of water vapor into the air.

GIACHINO:  Okay.  Well that's all the time that we have.  I would like to invite you back again because I had many more questions and I would particularly like to hear more about what Daimler Chrysler is doing.  Thank you for joining us today.

CAPPA:  Thank you, it was great to be here.

TRAN:  Thank you