Several bills are being considered in Congress to increase border security between the United States and Mexico.  These proposals are part of a larger effort at immigration reform.  Recently, Colin Hanna of the organization We-Need-A-Fence spoke with Renee Giachino, the Center's Corporate Counsel, about legislation that his organization is supporting to build a security fence along the southern border.

What follows are excerpts from the interview that aired on "Your Turn - Meeting Nonsense with Common Sense" on WEBY 1330AM, Northwest Florida's Talk Radio.

GIACHINO:  A CNN Online poll shows that 87% of respondents support building a security fence along the U.S.-Mexico border.  There is an advocacy group out there supporting legislation to build a security fence along the southern border.  The organization is called We-Need-A-Fence and some of you may have seen some of their advertisements that just started running on CNN and Fox News Channel.

Joining us now on the program is Mr. Colin Hanna who is going to talk about the organization We-Need-A-Fence and its efforts to have a fence built to stop the flow of terrorists across the border.

Mr. Hanna, thank you very much for joining us.

HANNA:  Renee, please call me Colin and let me say what a joy it is to be on WEBY.  As a former Navy fly-boy who flew T28s out of Milton, I feel like I am coming home.

GIACHINO:  Well that is great news.  You are coming home because we are seated right here in the center of Milton and many in the listening audience have flown that same jet.  It is a pleasure to have you on and we would welcome you to come home and visit us in person any time that you are in the Panhandle.

HANNA:  You know I would love to do it because I have seen the Senior PGA tour event that is at the golf course in Milton - the course that was not there when I was in Milton.  It looks magnificent.

GIACHINO:  Well the event won't be here when you come back.  They just announced that the event has been moved to Destin - not too far away so we can still get over there to watch.  Unfortunately our wonderful facility here that you were referencing, The Moors, recently lost that tournament.  Maybe they will be able to attract something else.  We'll see.

Just as a matter of background, let me ask you to please introduce yourself.  I understand that you are a former Chester County, Pennsylvania commissioner.  How did you get involved with this issue?

HANNA:  Well after I left public office at the end of '03, I started a public policy non-profit called Let Freedom Ring.  We are a classically conservative group that talks about things like constitutional government, economic freedom and traditional values and we never got involved in the immigration issue until I heard the presentation from a former assistant commissioner of INS, who is now a Senior Fellow with the Philadelphia-based foreign policy group called the Foreign Policy Research Institute.  Well, he educated me not simply on the big numbers of illegal immigrants - I think we all know that there are a million or so illegal immigrants a year, 100,000 of which are not from Mexico, many of us know those numbers. 

But very few of us realize that in those numbers are several hundred from terrorism-sponsoring and terrorism-harboring countries.  And that gives you reason for real pause.  What are those people, what are people from Yemen, the Sudan, Iran and Syria, doing in Mexico attempting to enter the United States illegally?  It cannot be good.

GIACHINO:  So the parent organization, so to speak, is Let Freedom Ring.  Just so that I am not negligent in doing this later, could you give the listeners the web address for that organization?

HANNA:  Sure, Let Freedom Ring's web address is quite simply letfreedomring.com.  The We-Need-A-Fence initiative website is weneedafence.com.  And the two are linked.

GIACHINO:  Okay.  Now tell us about We-Need-A-Fence.  It obviously sounds like it is a sister or subsidiary organization, we obviously don't need to know the technicalities of all of that, but if you would please tell us about We-Need-A-Fence.  Is it the organization that is promoting and I assume raising funds to try to get some legislation passed to build a security fence along our southern border?

HANNA:  That's correct, the entire 2,000 mile extent of the southern border.  And we think it needs to be a fairly robust fence.  One modeled after the fences that have been so successful in Israel on both the West Bank and Gaza.  And those are not just mere fences that you might think of or the sort that you might go down to Home Depot and look at. 

These are fences that would be 40-50 yards in width, and consist of 6 or 7 different stages.  They have an 8 or 6 foot high pyramid of dense barb wire, followed by a deep and steep ditch, followed by a high fence that is much sturdier than a chain link fence, but in some ways similar, with motion detectors and cameras mounted on top, then a patrol road that vehicles can move up and down and then a parallel fence on the other side, and then a parallel ditch and parallel pyramid of barb wire.  That means that you cannot get over it by carrying a ladder to the border, as you can in some parts of the fence that we have today.  And you cannot get through it by going down to the local hardware store and getting a bolt cutter or wire cutters and clipping a chain link fence, and you cannot easily tunnel under it.  That is the kind of fence that I think is necessary.

But I hasten to point out that we are also in favor of about 200 legal crossing points or points of entry along that fence.  The fence, after all, is between two allies and trading partners and we are absolutely in favor of maintaining a vigorous trade with Mexico, tourism, commuting, and all of that stuff that is entirely legal.  It is the illegal immigration that we are trying to stop.

GIACHINO:  We know that there are definite hot spots and some of the governors in some of the border states where this is a real disaster for them can identify these hot spots.  Do we need to have a fence over every inch of that 2,000 mile border?

HANNA:  Well the answer is yes because if you make it discontinuous then the gaps become the next hot spots.

GIACHINO:  That's what I would assume.  Well at what cost?  Are there projections for what something like this might cost?

HANNA:  Sure.  Let me give you a couple of frames of reference.  We think it is going to cost about $2-4 million a mile.  By comparison, the parallel sound walls that you see beside the interstates cost about $1 million a mile.  So the kind of structure that we have talked about, which is not inherently expensive but it does have some scope to it, but it is not an inherently expensive engineering feat or anything like that, we think the $2-4 million a mile estimate is a pretty good one.  And if you do that for 2,000 miles of border, you come up with a total of $4-8 billion.

That is not an insignificant number but it is not also out of range for what is called for.  Just by way of comparison, we have spent $16 billion on improving airline security and airport security just since 9-11.  And if you want to look at it in defense terms, it is roughly the cost of four B-2 bombers.

GIACHINO:  Wow. 

HANNA:  So it is not unthinkable in terms of the scope of the expense.

GIACHINO:  Do we get any decrease in the expense then on the wages and benefits that we have to pay to security patrols?  Can we decrease the security forces?

HANNA:  I don't think you can because I think they are so woefully understaffed right now that all you can do is improve the efficiency of those staffs.  There are about 11,000 border patrol agents right now.  If you were to attempt to address the border security problem entirely with manpower and without a physical barrier of any sort that we are talking about, you would probably need about 150,000 agents.  Well, I think you can do it with far less with the fence but I don't think you can actually reduce the complement because it is actually so far understaffed.  But what you can reduce, ultimately over time, is the social costs associated with the social services that are consumed by these illegal aliens.

I am very much in favor of immigration - this is not an anti-immigration initiative.  But this is an anti-illegal immigration initiative and the illegal immigrants, in part because they are not paid regular legal wages, are the ones that provide a drain cost-wise, economically, on the social service system.

GIACHINO:  So in fact the security fence may simply be a start to what is much needed in our country to improve our national security?  We all hear stories of how INS will not even deport criminals and illegal aliens.  Intrinsically, I have the sense that our entire approach to illegal immigration is broken and it is unlikely that there is the will or the commitment, politically or financially, to fix it.  Don't you agree that we need to fix the whole system?

HANNA:  We do.  It is a very complex and puzzling matter when you take all aspects of it into consideration.  We are focusing on one aspect that we feel has been ignored by virtually all of the people who have proposed a so-called comprehensive approach.  And it is our contention that if you say you have a comprehensive approach to illegal immigration, and you do not have a secure barrier that we are talking about, then both literally and figuratively, you have a hole in your plan.

GIACHINO:  We are talking with Colin Hanna and he is president of the organization Let Freedom Ring and he is heading up a new organization called We-Need-A-Fence.  It is an advocacy group supporting legislation to build a security fence along the southern border.

Colin, what is happening in Congress with this issue?

HANNA:  I've personally met with the staffs of about 15 members of Congress and directly with the members themselves in 10 cases and I will tell you that the reception has been remarkably positive.  In some cases it has been so positive that in one case I expect a bill along the lines of what we are calling for to be introduced in 30-60 days. 

In another case, a simpler bill, calling for a sort of scaled down fence, which frankly I don't think will do the job that is required, has just been introduced by Steve King of Iowa.  The other one I cannot give you the name of the member of Congress because it has not been introduced yet but it is from a border state.

So the response has been good.  I have called on both sides of the aisle and on all parts of the political spectrum and in several cases I have encountered people who said that two years ago this matter would have been absolutely off the table, but right now they are considering it seriously.

GIACHINO:  When you were describing this sophisticated type of fence - you said 40-50 yards in width with 6-7 stages with dense barbed wire and motion detectors and cameras and all those sort of things.  You talked about it being a fence like the one that exists in Israel.  How has that worked in Israel and do they have a proven record?

HANNA:  Yes they do.  In fact, depending on exactly what reporter you follow, they will claim that it is either 95% effective or up to 100% effective in terms of stopping terrorist attacks.  They don't have the ports of entry that we are talking about but that has been remarkably effective.

GIACHINO:  Will we need to do the same thing again along the Canadian border?  When you talked early in the interview you talked about folks who are coming over not just being people who are from the border country - illegal immigrants say from Mexico, but there are people coming from other places who land first in the border country.  Could they just change their flight plans and go to Canada and do you think that we are going to eventually need a fence along that border and isn't it a much longer fence?

HANNA:  Yes, it is a much longer fence and frankly it is certainly a possibility.  But if you look at the border patrol statistics on illegal aliens who have been apprehended - that is the ones who have been caught, and you take away Mexico altogether, taking away the Mexicans, 93% of them come across the southern border and 7% across the northern border.  So the southern border is where we have to start.

We certainly should build one fence at a time.  It certainly is possible that we will need to consider the other fence at some time.

GIACHINO:  I think you gave us a number early in the interview of how many come in each year.  Do you have any idea or estimate as to how many illegal immigrants are already in our country?

HANNA:  There are a number of different surveys.  The highest number that I have seen was associated with the Bears Stearns Survey estimates it at 20 million.  The one that is given greater credence by many is the Pew Hispanic Research Survey which shows about 11 million.  It is probably somewhere in between those numbers.

GIACHINO:  I want to now talk about the cost of these illegal immigrants - those already here, and the tax that they put on our social systems.  I think this helps people to understand why this is such a concern - even beyond the terrorist threats and the national security concerns.

HANNA:  Absolutely.

GIACHINO:  What kinds of systems are they taxing additionally?

HANNA:  Certainly there are health care costs associated with folks who are in many cases indigent, in part because they are illegal aliens and don't earn standards U.S. wages. 

There are other social service costs.  There are education costs for the children of illegal immigrants.  In some states there are benefits directly offered even if the children were not born in this country.

It is very difficult to get your arms around the total financial costs but one of the ones that I have seen is that it is in the vicinity of $10 billion per year, which is, of course, greater than the cost of constructing the kind of fence that we are talking about.

GIACHINO:  So we know already that there is an additional tax or tax upon our education system through illegal immigration and as well on our health care system.  I think you mentioned earlier that we are incarcerating a number of illegal immigrants.  Doesn't that as well pose an additional tax - the amount we have to pay to jail these folks here?

HANNA:  Sure it does.  And in the case of Mexicans who are apprehended as illegal immigrants, they are sent back to Mexico.  But other than Mexicans or as the border patrol calls them, OTMs, they cannot be sent back to Mexico.  First, Mexico will not take them.  Second, the principles of international law require that if we are going to deport them they have to first of all have a deportation hearing and then the United States would have to pay to fly them back or otherwise ship them back to their country of origin.  So it is very complex and very expensive.

You know what happens when an other-than-Mexican is apprehended near the border?  They are actually scheduled for a deportation hearing, which typically takes about 30 days.  During that time there are insufficient beds in detention facilities to hold them so they are given a piece of paper called a "Notice to Appear" and on that piece of paper it says when their deportation hearing will be held and they ask that person come back for their deportation hearing so that it can be determined whether or not that person will be deported.

And then they turn them loose.  And that piece of identification is their actual legal identification from that point until the time of their deportation hearing.  How many do you think actually show up for the deportation hearing?

GIACHINO:  You are absolutely right.  Again another tax upon our system - our judicial and regulatory system as well, is the expense to hold these deportation hearings, to the extent they ever get held.

You've made the case that we need this - certainly for national security.  It may in fact help us to cut down on our expenses nationally.  Who is on the other side of the fence on this issue - pun intended?

HANNA:  Well I think a lot of people who are afraid to take strong leadership for fear that it will be perceived as racist or anti-Hispanic or anti-Mexican.  That is certainly not the case in our case but I do understand why people are afraid of it.  You have to be very careful to indicate that you are in support of appropriate immigration limits, that this is not an effort to completely shut down the United States - which has historically been a nation of immigrants, to further immigration.  But I do think that it is right as well to uphold the rule of law.

That is the primary reason why people are afraid to take leadership on this issue.  Although, when you see numbers like the CNN survey you cited - 87% support, you would like to think that if you can wave an 87% support issue in front of a Congressperson and recognize that there is no clear identified leader for that 87% issue, you would think that a Congressperson in a tough race would say that they would like to make it their issue.

GIACHINO:  I guess that is an interesting point.  I was thinking of the political fall-out from the other side of the perspective.  Do you think the political party responsible for putting up a border security barrier will forfeit the immigrant/Mexican/Hispanic voting bloc?

HANNA:  Sure there is that fear but I don't think it is well-founded.  If you look at surveys of actual U.S. citizens who are of Hispanic background themselves - either first generation immigrants or one generation removed, you will find that they are far and away in agreement with clamping down on illegal immigration and supporting legal immigration.  And they are people who have played by the rules.  They have become citizens by first being legal in their immigration status and then by going through the process that leads them to citizenship. 

Those people, having played by the rules, don't really like other folks who are attempting to get into this country and not playing by the rules.  And since those are the ones who vote, not others who may be surveyed but who don't have citizenship and don't have voting privileges, then I think that the voting bloc that is themselves immigrants or one generation removed from it are largely in favor of the kind of initiative that we have outlined and not in favor of maintaining completely open and porous borders.

GIACHINO:  I am sure your website has a lot of ideas for things people can do.  I think I saw a petition up there that they can sign?

HANNA:  Absolutely.  It is addressed to the president and members of Congress.

GIACHINO: If you would, please give your website address again.

HANNA:  It is very easy to remember - it is weneedafence.com.

GIACHINO:  And if they want to visit the other organization?

HANNA:  Letfreedomring.com.  There is a blog that you can make comments on, you can send e-mails, and yes, you can even make a contribution.

GIACHINO:  Thank you, Mr. Colin Hanna for joining us this afternoon and we will ask you to update us soon.

HANNA:  Certainly, it will be my pleasure.